2024-07-16 00:50:02
What word describes what you think of Donald Trump? What word describes what
you think of Donald Trump?
Khaled, 50, Pa., school principal
Paul, 57, Ga., veteran
J.D., 50, Ariz., coach
While President Biden enjoys strong support from Black voters, Donald Trump has chipped away at that crucial Democratic base: He won 12 percent of Black voters in the 2020 election and did especially well with Black men, winning 19 percent. Some pollsters think Mr. Trump may do even better in November. So for our latest Times Opinion focus group, we wanted to hear from Black men who like Mr. Trump to better understand why — including those who disliked him at first but changed their minds. This focus group was held last week, before the assassination attempt on Mr. Trump.
Some of the participants blamed the Democratic Party for expecting too little of Black Americans or treating them like victims. “I think they have underestimated how much Black men care about their family. We don’t want excuses as much as they think we want excuses,” said Rashad, a 40-year-old graphic designer from Pennsylvania. At the same time, the usual G.O.P. talk about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps was off-putting to some of the men, one of whom noted that many non-Black Americans were born into families that owned homes or enjoyed other privileges.
Mr. Trump’s image as a celebrity businessman held real appeal for the men in our group. While some were turned off by his comments and policies early on, including his Muslim travel ban, they said they came around as they watched him and learned about his record in office. They appreciated what they saw as his economic know-how, low inflation during his term and his law-and-order stances. His support for federal funding for historically Black colleges and universities came up repeatedly as evidence that Mr. Trump wasn’t racist. His recent felony convictions made some of them like him more. But they also said that some of their friends and relatives sharply disagreed with them about Mr. Trump.
We have published focus groups with supporters of Mr. Biden as well. As for these 11 men and Mr. Biden, several participants said they were not really put off by his poor debate performance — but only because they felt that his cognitive condition and age have been common knowledge for some time. For these men, Mr. Trump is not just the more appealing choice but also the sole realistic option, given “how off track the president is mentally,” as one participant said.
Participants
Aamir 30, Pennsylvania, security
Branden 46, Nevada, retail merchandiser
Dylan 31, Arizona, program manager
J.D. 50, Arizona, coach
Jeremy 34, Georgia, microbiologist
Khaled 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
Marlon 47, Georgia, florist
Paul 57, Georgia, veteran
Rashad 40, Pennsylvania, graphic designer
Samuel 28, Arizona, data analyst
Theodore 36, Georgia, construction
Transcript
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
What would you say is most off track in America today?
Paul, 57, Georgia, veteran
Leadership.
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
Morality.
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
The economy. I come from a big family, and I’m the breadwinner. I feel every single penny when I go to the market and when I gas up my car. Things aren’t as cheap as they used to be.
Jeremy, 34, Georgia, microbiologist
The cult of progressivism.
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
Morality. We are a nation that has lost its way in terms of morals as it deals with God, as it deals with family — for money in a lot of cases.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
And what’s one word to describe how you feel about the election in November?
Paul, 57, Georgia, veteran
Curious.
Jeremy, 34, Georgia, microbiologist
Ambivalent.
Rashad, 40, Pennsylvania, graphic designer
Excited.
Branden, 46, Nevada, retail merchandiser
Apprehensive.
Samuel, 28, Arizona, data analyst
Excited, too.
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
Exhausted.
Aamir, 30, Pennsylvania, security
Hopeful.
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
Blah.
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
Optimistic.
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
Hopeless.
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
Illusion.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
Tell me why you say “illusion.”
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
There are so many things going on that the election is a distraction from the reality of the things we need to do. It’s an illusion of hope in a particular person, that things are going to change.
Rashad, 40, Pennsylvania, graphic designer
I said I am excited because I think it’s time for change, and I think everybody’s aware of that.
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
The reason I said “hopeless” was, post-Covid, things seemed like they were going good for a while, but then people began to separate all over again, and then we got the economy going up and down, gas prices.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
When you’re deciding how to vote, what’s the most important issue on your mind?
Rashad, 40, Pennsylvania, graphic designer
Leadership and competency. Like, if a person ain’t competent to run this country, then it doesn’t matter what the issue is; he’s going to fail at all issues.
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
Probably the border. It’s affected some people I know personally up in Philadelphia — family.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
Tell me more about that.
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
My cousin is a schoolteacher, and her school, a private school, had to house some — I don’t know if they’re illegals, but I just know they were families that came from the border. She has four kids, and all her kids go to that same school. And none of these people had background checks or anything like that, so it was just a safety concern. I’m down here in Georgia, and I felt hopeless in a way that I couldn’t help her or be there for my little nieces and nephews.
Branden, 46, Nevada, retail merchandiser
The most important thing on my mind is crime. I live in Las Vegas, and Nevada is one of the most dangerous states in the United States. Crime has jumped in Las Vegas, a lot of homelessness.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
Is there an issue that you think the candidates are not focusing on enough?
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
Education. I’m a school leader. Coming out of Covid, our kids are behind, and nobody’s mentioning it. The only mention we got is that the National Education Association is on strike, and the current guy in the Oval Office — he didn’t want to break the picket lines.
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
Health care is crucial because our nation overall, especially with the past two leaders, has such a misunderstanding of what health care means and really where the needs lie.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
I want to talk about the presidential race and your own political views. I wanted to know if you think you’ve been moving politically in a more conservative direction or in a more liberal direction or if you haven’t really noticed a difference.
Jeremy, 34, Georgia, microbiologist
I see very progressive groupthink mind-sets, a very heavy emphasis on emotion, like on race relations or climate change. A lot of the time, it’s overcorrection — an acknowledgment of things that happened in the past and an unhealthy fixation with using that as a weapon, in terms of pushing through governmental policies.
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
I’m 31. I wrote my senior thesis paper on reparations, so I definitely saw myself as liberal-thinking. But then I learned more and more that that’s just kind of an identity more than it is really an ideal kind of mind-set.
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
This current election cycle — it’s surprising how far we’ve gone.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
What do you mean?
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
Just when you think that it can’t get any crazier, it’s just like, wow, I didn’t think they did that in America. I’ll give you a perfect example: the recent presidential debate. The thing that blows my mind is that people were actually surprised and are now sounding the alarms as if the news wasn’t talking about this for the last couple of years, about how bad and how off track the president is mentally.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
Which presidents do you think have done the most for Black Americans?
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
Within my lifetime, I guess Obama — not only for the fact that he’s the first minority president, but it just seemed like his whole campaign was “Things are going to change.” He did make certain progress, especially amongst minorities.
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
I would have to circle back to Kennedy, to be honest.
Samuel, 28, Arizona, data analyst
Obama.
Branden, 46, Nevada, retail merchandiser
I would have to say Trump. He had the lowest unemployment numbers for Black Americans in a long time, so just by that figure alone, I would say Trump.
Aamir, 30, Pennsylvania, security
Obama brought a lot of trust from the community back into the office of the presidency.
Jeremy, 34, Georgia, microbiologist
President Lincoln.
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
Trump, with what he did with the H.B.C.U.s, as far as making sure that there was money, as far as what he did with the ex-offenders.
Rashad, 40, Pennsylvania, graphic designer
In my lifetime, it would have to be Trump. H.B.C.U. financing, the things that people went through after Covid. I had Obama for a good chunk of my adult life. It was good for theatrics and getting people into politics, but what actually happened?
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
I’m going out on a limb. I would say Biden. I have some nephews, and Biden really has helped them to wake up from the illusion that Obama kind of created. We got to do a lot for ourselves.
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
In my lifetime, I’m going to say Trump, but before my lifetime, I have to say Roosevelt. Honestly, I think it’s a collaboration with him and Eleanor. I think my generation tries to look at Trump as, like, this racist guy or whatever. I don’t think Trump really cares about your race as to what you stand for and how you act, pretty much. It’s not the fact that you’re Black, you’re white, yellow or purple. It’s like, OK, when you step into public, how are you going to conduct yourself?
Moderator, Patrick Healy
What do you think Democrats understand the least about Black Americans and specifically Black men in America?
Jeremy, 34, Georgia, microbiologist
The assumption that every Black male youth is an automatic victim due to either systemic racism or factors outside of their control.
Rashad, 40, Pennsylvania, graphic designer
I think they have underestimated how much Black men care about their family. We don’t want excuses as much as they think we want excuses. We want people to get out and work and do certain things. The value of the Black man in the household, when it comes to what our value is and how much we think we’re needed, I think that’s undervalued.
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
I think they’re confused. I think they went so far to try to do so many different things, and now there’s more of an independent thought with Black men in this country.
Aamir, 30, Pennsylvania, security
I don’t think it’s Black or white. It’s just job security, the economy, going to the grocery store and getting a bang for your buck. But there are issues that do strike the community more, like police brutality.
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
It’s the pandering to the Black race, thinking that we are looking for a handout and feeling sorry for us, when we’re capable and culpable. And I feel like the pandering of “all you broken-down people, you need us, and here we are; we’re going to help you” — it’s not a respectful tone or manner. It’s insulting, actually.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
What do you think that the Republicans understand least about Black Americans and particularly Black men in America today?
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
Equality.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
How so?
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
Us as minorities, it’s hard in society just basically coming up in general. We’ve been fighting for rights for years. And I don’t feel as though they see that.
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
I would say opportunity. They have this mind-set of up by the bootstraps. And that’s definitely true in some ways. We can make things happen for ourselves. But I have a lot of friends that were born with a house already. They didn’t have to do anything, and they already have a house. That doesn’t happen in our world a lot.
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
Republicans think that since many of us came up Democrats, they think they’ll never get our vote because our parents were Democrats and friends were Democrats. Whereas I’m looking at where the country is. I’m way more conservative than I was just a few years ago.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
In what ways?
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
So when I started looking at TikToks, you’ll see people go around asking, “Would you vote for Trump, or would you vote for Biden?” and “Why wouldn’t you vote for Trump?” And when I hear my generation, the first thing they say is, “He’s a racist.” But it’s like, bro, do you really know that, or are you just following the bandwagon? Trump isn’t a racist. He doesn’t care what color you are; it’s just how you carry yourself. The man is a businessman.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
Let’s talk more about Donald Trump. When you think of Mr. Trump, what is the first word that comes to mind?
Samuel, 28, Arizona, data analyst
Knowledgeable.
Paul, 57, Georgia, veteran
Unfiltered.
Branden, 46, Nevada, retail merchandiser
Fairness.
Aamir, 30, Pennsylvania, security
Leadership.
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
Businessman.
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
Courageous.
Rashad, 40, Pennsylvania, graphic designer
I’ll say “leadership.”
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
Figurehead.
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
Respected.
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
Take him as he is.
Jeremy, 34, Georgia, microbiologist
Unapologetic.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
I want to ask you about something that Donald Trump said at a campaign rally in March. “My administration is delivering for African Americans like never before. No president has done more for our Black community,” Trump said. We talked a little bit about whether past presidents have delivered for the Black community. I’m interested in what you think about Donald Trump’s claim. Is there anything that comes to mind for you, specifically, that Donald Trump has done?
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
He’s been more vocal than other presidents about his intentions with our H.B.C.U.s, with jobs. He’s kind of taken the bull by the horns, for lack of better terms. And other people haven’t really done that. Trump is take it or leave it. I’d rather know who I’m dealing with than have to guess who I’m dealing with.
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
With Trump, I would say he’s very bold and courageous. If he says he’s going to do it, he’s going to do it. As far as other presidents, I can say that he’s one who sticks to his word.
Aamir, 30, Pennsylvania, security
I think some of the actions he’s taken during, especially the Covid time period, were some things that nobody in history has ever done. Like the stimulus checks, and I think there were three of them. No president has ever given the American people, especially the Black community, that much just for emergencies.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
How did the stimulus affect you personally, if at all?
Aamir, 30, Pennsylvania, security
It helped me pay rent for several months. It kept me in the fold of looking forward — to not lose all the things that I worked for up until that point, just because jobs were closed.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
Is there anybody else here who thinks about the handling of Covid or something like the economic stimulus that came after it as a part of why you might like or not like Donald Trump?
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
A lot of presidents try to do too much. And he’s a rich man, and rich men, they know how to surround themselves around people that know things. And I think he was able to do that, able to navigate through that, by talking to some people.
Do you think the economy was better under Donald Trump? Do you think the economy was better under Donald Trump? 11 people raised their hands.
Aamir, 30, Pa., security
Branden, 46, Nev., retail merchandiser
Dylan, 31, Ariz., program manager
J.D., 50, Ariz., coach
Jeremy, 34, Ga., microbiologist
Khaled, 50, Pa., school principal
Marlon, 47, Ga., florist
Paul, 57, Ga., veteran
Rashad, 40, Pa., graphic designer
Samuel, 28, Ariz., data analyst
Theodore, 30, Ga., construction
Paul, 57, Georgia, veteran
I think it’s better because he’s not a politician, per se. He’s a businessman. He thinks of getting money, making money. Politicians will tell you about a program or something that they have for our kids’ kids and not for us. So the first time in history, we saw something actually happening for us through Donald Trump. And I think personally he did more for Black colleges than any president has, and people don’t recognize that.
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
He made America our focus, and not all the other countries. He focused on the home front, and that had a significant impact on us as a country and as a people.
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
Yeah, he did put America first. It was just the fact that he was like, “Well, wait a minute, what about us? And if you’re going to elect me, I’m going to take care of us first.”
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
Did you always like Donald Trump? Or was there a particular moment when you decided, “Yep, this is my guy”?
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
My friends thought I was crazy at first. But the choices that we were given, I felt that Trump might be the choice that may help us out a little bit more. So from the first time we had the choice of Trump to now.
Paul, 57, Georgia, veteran
I always liked Trump. I’ve been doing music for the last 30 years. And I’m from Flint, Mich. We listened to the music coming from New York. Donald Trump was around rappers who were in New York. He had his ear to the street. He knows the culture, and people don’t see that.
Samuel, 28, Arizona, data analyst
I’ve always liked Trump because he’s an unfiltered man. He’s someone who knows what he wants to do and someone who won’t pretend to like what he doesn’t like. And I love the fact that he’s a very knowledgeable and experienced businessman.
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
I wouldn’t say it’s as much as I liked him; I respected him. And like Paul mentioned before, a little thing, he was one of the most mentioned names in rap music up until he ran for president. I also felt like we needed someone that wasn’t a politician in office. Now, do I like all the antics and things like that? No. But he was respected. He puts the cards on the table. For example, when he was talking about NATO and other countries, he was like, “You’re going to pay us to protect you.” I guess there’s that part of the common street element that we understand, too, right? I don’t agree with anyone totally anyway, right?
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
Yeah, I couldn’t stand that man. Trump came out and started attacking people’s religion and immigrants. I mean, he was hitting a little bit too close to home for me. I’m married to an immigrant. He was attacking my religion. And so I definitely had no good thoughts about him. But he got in, and he actually did so much good. So the second time around, yeah, my entire family was — well, not my entire, my wife still hated him — but we started to come around and say, “All right, we got to get this guy.”
Branden, 46, Nevada, retail merchandiser
I didn’t like him. There were some things I heard — he’s a racist, he’s a loudmouth, he’s a bigot — and I guess I fed into the narrative of the legacy media that they were spewing out, all this stuff about him that he’s racist this and racist that. But then I had a friend of mine who started telling me more stuff about him, and I started doing some research, and I found out, well, if he’s so racist, why is he giving to H.B.C.U.s? Why is he the president that gave the most money to H.B.C.U.s? If he’s so racist, why did he hire the first Black female Marine brigadier general?
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
Do most of your friends and family agree or disagree with you about Donald Trump?
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
It is definitely one of those gray areas you just kind of leave alone. I mean, my wife, we’re more in line with each other. She’s Puerto Rican. But my Black friends, if I straight told them that I was going to vote for Donald Trump tomorrow, they might stop being my friend. They might think I’m going crazy or something. And it’s honestly just because of what they see in the media and what they hear from other people. It has really nothing to do with their own research. It’s everybody else’s bias, and they just kind of follow the bandwagon when it comes to that, and I think I was part of that society until I broke the chain. I was like, “Wait a minute, man.” And with everything that he’s done, it’s just like, “How can you not vote for this guy?” He’s, I feel like, the first president that hasn’t been a politician, whereas everyone else has been a politician.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
A number of you have talked about how you had one idea about Donald Trump and then you did your own research or you heard from someone that had sort of a different perspective. Are there any commentators, media sources, places that you go to find opinions and information that you trust on this?
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
I was in television and actually worked with him. Working for him, I don’t see how this guy can really be racist, where 90 percent of the staff here are African Americans. And he never yelled at anybody. He never disrespected anybody.
Branden, 46, Nevada, retail merchandiser
Yeah, there’s a journalist; his name is Joshua Philipp, and he writes for The Epoch Times. Every time I listen to him — he’s definitely conservative, and you can definitely hear that as he reports the news — but he’s always telling you where he got his information from. He’s not pandering to you.
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
I have to say the mainstream media backfired with the second impeachment, Jan. 6. A very small portion of what he said was replayed and replayed and replayed and replayed. But when you listen to the whole thing in totality, it gave some more perspective. Some of my friends and family members that grew up on the streets — he became relatable to them because of seeing how things were falsely presented against them.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
Last month in Manhattan, Donald Trump was convicted of a crime. Did that have any impact on anyone?
Theodore, 36, Georgia, construction
It probably made me more pro-Trump, to be honest. I feel like there’s probably been presidents throughout history that should have been convicted and prosecuted for crimes and they weren’t.
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
Yeah, definitely. He’s more relatable. To see that he’s a human being. You can make mistakes in life and still progress and move on and still accomplish things.
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
I would just say it made me pay even more attention to some of these things that they try to throw out there. They’re already doing this whole Project 2025 thing to try to deter people from moving Trump’s way.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
When you say “they,” who do you mean, Dylan?
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
I would say the mainstream media overall, just trying to create these narratives that people will pay attention to.
Branden,
46, Nev., retail merchandiser
Jeremy,
34, Ga., microbiologist
Rashad,
40, Pa., graphic designer
J.D.,
50, Ariz., coach
Khaled,
50, Pa., school principal
Marlon,
47, Ga., florist
Theodore,
30, Ga., construction
Samuel, 28, Arizona, data analyst
No, no, no. I don’t think it’d be right for him to tell the Justice Department to drop the charges against him. The department should be able to carry on its process.
J.D., 50, Arizona, coach
Every politician or political figure knows loopholes in the system. But I don’t think he should be able to do it. No one is above investigations.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
If you saw the recent presidential debate, was there anything about it that really stuck with you about Biden or about Trump?
Branden, 46, Nevada, retail merchandiser
The one thing that stuck with me was how everybody was so surprised about Biden’s incompetence, his old age, his stammering and his lack of focus. If you paid attention, he hasn’t been there for the past three years.
Aamir,
30, Pa., security
Branden,
46, Nev., retail merchandiser
Dylan,
31, Ariz., program manager
J.D.,
50, Ariz., coach
Jeremy,
34, Ga., microbiologist
Khaled,
50, Pa., school principal
Marlon,
47, Ga., florist
Paul,
57, Ga., veteran
Rashad,
40, Pa., graphic designer
Samuel,
28, Ariz., data analyst
Theodore,
30, Ga., construction
Aamir,
30, Pa., security
Dylan,
31, Ariz., program manager
Aamir, 30, Pennsylvania, security
Trump didn’t look as sharp as in the debates he had during the previous election. But I know that, on his side, he has a lot going on as well. I know that Biden said he just had a bad night. But that was more than a bad night. That was bad in total.
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
We know what happens to the human body as it ages. I studied the neurobiology of aging. These are men over 70. They’re going to be experiencing cognitive decline. You can’t avoid it.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
Is there anything in America that has gotten better over the last four years that you’d give at least some credit to Joe Biden for?
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
Nothing.
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
Agreed.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
I also want to ask about impressions also of Vice President Kamala Harris, as well. Do you think better or worse of her since 2020?
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
I would say worse. Honestly, you really don’t see her as the vice president. She’s never here. I don’t see her doing anything.
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
I agree.
Moderator, Kristen Soltis Anderson
I want to ask, when you say you never see her, tell me why you think that is. Do you think it’s that the White House and President Biden are not putting her out there? Or do you think that she is choosing to not be out there as much?
Marlon, 47, Georgia, florist
It’s probably a mix between the two. You see her every now and then, but — as a political leader — I didn’t see her really show up much.
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
I didn’t have a high opinion of her going in. But she hasn’t done anything, and she just really soured in that role.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
If we were to live in a world where you could pick the candidates who were running for president in November, is there anyone you would choose to run on the Democratic side or on the Republican side who isn’t running?
Khaled, 50, Pennsylvania, school principal
I like that guy Vivek. He’s young. He’s energetic. He speaks his mind.
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
I think if there were a real opportunity, I would definitely be voting Cornel West, but that couldn’t happen in this world.
Moderator, Patrick Healy
What do you like about him, Dylan?
Dylan, 31, Arizona, program manager
He isn’t a politician.
Aamir,
30, Pa., security
Branden,
46, Nev., retail merchandiser
Dylan,
31, Ariz., program manager
J.D.,
50, Ariz., coach
Jeremy,
34, Ga., microbiologist
Khaled,
50, Pa., school principal
Marlon,
47, Ga., florist
Paul,
57, Ga., veteran
Rashad,
40, Pa., graphic designer
Samuel,
28, Ariz., data analyst
Theodore,
30, Ga., construction
Rashad, 40, Pennsylvania, graphic designer
We want everybody to be decent people. But at the end of the day, we want to get the job done. We don’t have time for emotions and pandering or whether someone’s feelings get hurt. In an ideal world, we wouldn’t want to hurt no one’s feelings and have no one upset or upset no communities and things like that. But I just need a strong leader. That’s all I need.
Paul, 57, Georgia, veteran
I think being a decent person is what everybody should be anyway. And that’s not going to help the economy. That’s not going to help us in wartime. But a strong leader is somebody that other countries will fear. And Biden and the Democrats, they want to talk it out and do this and that. I’m ex-military, so I’m like, looky here. If you put the fear in somebody, say, “Look, we will bomb you, you come over here with that crazy stuff.”
