Full transcript of “Face the Nation,” July 21, 2024

On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan: 

• House Intelligence Committee chairman Rep. Mike Turner, Republican of Ohio
• Sen. Joe Manchin, Demcorat of West Virginia
• Rep. Dean Phillips, Democrat of Minnesota
• Biden campaign co-chair Cedric Richmond
• Robert Kagan, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and an editor at large for The Washington Post, and Fiona Hill, former top official on the National Security Council

Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation.”   

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MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.

And this week on Face the Nation: Former President Donald Trump charts a new course for the Republican Party, as Democrats’ anxieties over their own presidential ticket reach a fever pitch.

The contrast couldn’t be greater between the two candidates. Trump, on the heels of securing a running mate and the Republican nomination for president, appeared at a rally last night for the first time since his attempted assassination one week ago.

(Begin VT)

DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. Presidential Candidate): They keep saying, he’s a threat to democracy. I’m saying, what the hell did I do for democracy? Last week, I took a bullet for democracy.

(CHEERING)

(APPLAUSE)

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: The former president argued it’s actually the Democrats who are preparing to thwart the will of the voters.

(Begin VT)

FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: At this very moment, Democrat Party bosses are frantically trying to overthrow the results of their own party’s primaries to dump crooked Joe Biden from the ballot.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Meanwhile, the calls for Mr. Biden to abandon his reelection bid continue to multiply with just weeks to spare before his party’s convention.

(Begin VT)

PROTESTERS: Hey, hey, ho, ho! Thank you, Joe! It’s time to go! Hey, hey!

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: But the president remains defiant, reportedly angry and frustrated by his critics, spending his weekend recovering from COVID in Delaware.

Can Democrats pull themselves together to defeat Trump? We will hear from West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin and Minnesota Democratic Congressman Dean Phillips.

The co-chair of President Biden’s reelection campaign, Cedric Richmond, will also join us.

Plus: What more could the Secret Service have done to stop the attempt on Trump’s life? We will check in with the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Ohio Republican Mike Turner.

Finally, we will take a deeper look at what a potential Trump second term could mean for America and the world.

It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.

Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.

As we start a new week here in Washington, the country is still making sense of the tumultuous moment that we are in. On Monday, just two days after Donald Trump survived an assassination attempt at a Pennsylvania rally, a federal judge in Florida dismissed the charges brought by Special Counsel Jack Smith for Trump’s mishandling of classified documents.

Those counts had been widely viewed as the most serious charges out of all the felony counts he faces in federal and state courts. Smith plans to appeal.

That same day, the Republican National Convention kicked off in Milwaukee, and Mr. Trump selected Ohio’s junior senator, J.D. Vance, as his running mate.

And it was a rough week for Mr. Biden following both his COVID diagnosis and the ongoing debate within the Democratic Party about whether he remains at the top of the ticket.

We have a lot to get to.

And we begin this morning with the Republican chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Ohio Congressman Mike Turner.

Good to have you here.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER (R-Ohio): Thank you for having me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, despite this epic security lapse, Donald Trump has praised the Secret Service detail and their actions last Saturday. I know you’ve said the director of the Secret Service should resign, if she’s not fired first.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Correct.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You get to ask her questions tomorrow. What do you want to know?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, the failures are just absolutely outrageous and incredible.

You know, first, you start asking the question, is this a failure of resources, is this a failure of protocols or a failure of management? And it appears that now we know that it’s all three, that people on the ground at Trump’s campaign who were involved with security had asked for additional resources.

They identified that there were gaps. And what’s interesting is, when we had our briefing, and the Secret Service gave us their own timeline, their own timeline admits that, nine minutes before Donald Trump took the stage, that they were aware of a particular threat, and still let Donald Trump take the stage.

And then, as we also know from their own timeline, they didn’t take a shot to take out the shooter until Donald Trump himself was shot. And what you see from this is that, you know, obviously, thank God Donald Trump is alive.

And, as he’s alive, we look at this as incompetence. But if he had been killed, they would be culpable. Every aspect of their failure leads right to giving an opportunity to shoot Donald Trump. And that is going to be the major issue. How did this happen?

And, of course, she needs to be fired. President Biden should fire her. She’s clearly not going to resign. But her failures are incredibly well- known throughout the organization. And even, as we look at that day, they were very, very basic failures.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But she’s at the very top. Are you saying this isn’t just an operational problem on the ground?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, she’s the leadership.

And what we’re hearing from the reports from requests for additional resources, that they went to the top of the organization, clearly, she was the one responsible for ensuring the safety of Donald Trump and – and Joe Biden.

And what we see here, these failures are so extreme that – that you know that they need new leadership.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The Secret Service, which had initially denied that they had turned down requests, now says that there were some specific units or resources that were not provided. And then they relied on local police.

Bigger picture, I mean, Pennsylvania’s a concealed-carry state. This firearm was legally purchased by the shooter. We have mass shootings in this country, unfortunately, all the time. Large gatherings are prime targets. It’s hard to stop a lone actor.

Is – is the plain fact here is that this could easily happen again, no matter who the Secret Service director is?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Not in this way. This was so obvious, a superior position.

Their footprint was insufficient. Their communication structure was insufficient. There was no way for anybody to communicate forward what was occurring. And the – you know, on that day, everything that occurred resulted in President Donald Trump not being protected from – from this – this site, and resulted in almost him losing his life.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We looked at our polling this week, and 62 percent of voters say they expect to see an increase in political violence in this country over the next two years. This was one instance of it.

Do you expect more violence?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, I think we’re certainly in a temperament where it is very difficult right now.

But, so far – that is part of the FBI investigation. They’re letting this be known early – that it doesn’t appear that he was, you know, a politico, that he wasn’t politically driven or motivated, that, in fact, perhaps he was tied to an interest in mass shootings and in – and in his loner status and – and, obviously, his fixation on guns, then brought himself to do this.

We’ll have to find out the whole picture.

(CROSSTALK)

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: We also have to find out, is he – is he a lone actor, really? We say he was a lone shooter? Was he a lone actor?

What really motivated this shooter is going to be very important.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So – so, in other words, he may not have been motivated by politics. Like, would you consider him a domestic violent extremist, or is this – this could have been any mass shooter at any mall in America, and he just happened to pick a rally?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, that’s – the early reports from the FBI indicate that, that he was just looking for places to go and that he picked this rally.

Now, we don’t know. The – the investigation will have to be completed. But what’s clear is, regardless of what kind of threat he was, the failures by the Secret Service are extreme. He walked in with a ladder. He had a range finder. He had a weapon. He got onto a roof that was within short distance.

All of these failures are obvious failures. And that’s clearly why the Secret Service needs – needs scrutiny and the director needs to be fired.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You are one of the strongest and most influential advocates in Congress for additional aid to Ukraine. You just went there.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: J.D. Vance, now the vice presidential candidate, is one of the most vocal opponents.

Are you worried that he is going to be the last person in President Trump’s ear if he wins?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: No.

And I – you know, vice presidents don’t have significant impact on – on foreign policy. But the other aspect is, is that he certainly won’t impact or change Donald Trump’s foreign policy. Donald Trump was the first to provide lethal weapons to Ukraine, reversing the policy of the prior Obama administration that would not provide them lethal aid.

Those were actually weapons that were used when Russia first began to attack Kiev.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: He’s – just yesterday, I think it was, had a phone call with Zelenskyy. And it was reported by both sides that it was very positive.

In his heart, Donald Trump is a negotiator. And he sees this as an opportunity to end this war and this war does need ended. We can’t continue…

MARGARET BRENNAN: On Ukraine’s terms, and not Russia’s?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: I – I believe, absolutely, that Ukraine needs to – to be the determiner of their – their future and their boundaries in – in negotiations.

But, at the same time, they can’t be in the situation they’re in with the Biden administration placing unbelievable restrictions on their use of – of weapons, their ability to fight Russia, take the fight to Russia.

This is a stasis. This is going to be an ongoing, forever border war under the Biden administration’s current restrictions on Ukraine. I think that Donald Trump will walk in and let everybody know that Ukraine is going to get everything it needs, they’re going to get the authorities they need, and Russia is going to have at that point a motivation to come to the table.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Russia, their foreign minister, praised the selection of J.D. Vance.

And you know that senior intelligence officials have briefed that Moscow’s preferred candidate remains Donald Trump. Does any of that concern you?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, again, I think everybody around the world wants a strong leader for the United States.

And what we currently have is a leader that is incapable of really making decisions. We need a leader who’s going to step up, represent the United States and, as Donald Trump has said, end these conflicts.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: It’s going to take a leader. It’s going to take a strong leader. And Donald Trump certainly has shown that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, he said just the other day to Bloomberg: “I think Taiwan should pay us for defense. You know, we’re no different than an insurance company. Taiwan doesn’t give us anything.”

That doesn’t sound like stalwart dedication to defending America’s allies.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, I think what’s important there, again…

MARGARET BRENNAN: It sounds like a protection racket.

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, no, I think what’s important here, again back to the negotiations of the – and Donald Trump’s focus on a negotiator, one thing that’s clear, we cannot have the United States just be a guarantor of territorial integrity of countries around the world.

We need military alliances. That means they need to be strong, and they need to – to participate. That’s certainly what his criticism of NATO has been. We’re not a guarantor. We want a strong NATO. We want a strong United States.

All of those positions are consistent, really, with the last four and five administrations, who have looked at our allies and said, you’re not doing enough. And I think he’ll continue to say that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: On Taiwan? Strategic ambiguity shouldn’t be the position anymore?

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Strategic ambiguity doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not Taiwan is – is strong militarily. They’re making their own – their decisions that they’re making as to the strength of their military should be in line with how they’re going to fight and defend their country, not just that the United States is going to come in and back them up.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Chair Turner, always good to have you here…

REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Thank you.

MARGARET BRENNAN: … in person.

We’re also joined in person now by West Virginia independent Senator Joe Manchin.

Good to see you, Senator.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN (I-West Virginia): Good to be with you, Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So you have made some news this morning, Senator, saying it is time for Joe Biden to pass the torch.

Did he know you were going to publicly say this?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: They were – they were informed.

Let me make sure that we preface this by saying how we got to where we got to. After – for three weeks, I haven’t said anything, because I thought, after the debate, that the president needs to process that, and it took a week. I thought, you know, there might be some movement there.

And then the next two weeks have been from my colleagues around the country, whether it be Congress – Congress districts, or whether it be states of senators that are in really challenging areas.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Now you’re hearing from them and the concerns they have with downballot and how it might affect them.

Then, on top of that, you have the donor class, who is showing great reserve right now. With that – and I do this with a very heavy heart, in saying that, I would like for President Biden to be able to finish his five months of leading this country, truly leading this country, the way I know we can.

I have known him for many, many years. He’s a good person. He wants to do – – he’s a patriot, and he wants to do the right thing. He wants to heal and bring people together.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: And if, at this point in time, he would pass that torch, he would be able to focus all of his energy towards – in the next five months of, how do we heal? How do we stop the fighting in Gaza? How do we get to a peace treaty? How do we support Ukraine, so that they can have a strong position at the bargaining table?

These are the things, and then basically show the rest of the world how the superpower of the world is able to have a transfer of power, and do it in the most beneficial way for the whole world to see that it can be done.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But Republicans are saying, if they – if he can’t stand for reelection, that he can’t even serve the next five months.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Well, let me just say about reelection…

MARGARET BRENNAN: You think he’s capable of serving the next five months?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Congressman Turner and I both understand this, that the rigors of a campaign is tough.

I have been on statewide campaigns. He’s in a large area and large district. These are tough, and it takes a lot of toll.

The president needs to be the president, OK?

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: But being in a campaign mode every day, every day being in campaign mode, thinking, what the next speech is going to be, your next fund-raiser is going to be, takes you away from the needs that we have in the world today and in our country.

I definitely believe he can do that. And I believe he can do it better than anybody else, and leave with a legacy unmatched. That’s what I know can be done and should be done. And I’m just very hopeful that this torch is passed to a new generation to allow President Biden be the president I know he is and can be.

We have our disagreements. We get back and forth. And – but I have – I have all the confidence in what he can do that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: How much time do Democrats have to settle this?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: I think the time is very short.

I mean, if it goes into the camp – into the convention itself…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: … that changes the whole dynamics.

But before the convention, I believe that it could be an open primary process and let the cream rise. I have got two governors in my neighborhood. I have got Kentucky, Andy Beshear, and I have got Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania, both working in challenging areas…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: … both able to be able to work with a legislature that is not of their own party, be able not to villainize anyone who happens to have an R by their name because they have a D by their name, and bringing their states together and having some progress.

Let’s hear from some of the – the – the rising stars, this new generation.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But black women are the backbone of the Democratic Party. If you bypass the vice president, Kamala Harris, doesn’t that undermine the basis for…

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: This is not about race and gender, Margaret. It’s not…

MARGARET BRENNAN: No, but it’s about votes and turnout.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Well, it’s not about race and – OK, but the bottom line is, 51 percent of those people who are participating in the voting process in America are registered independents.

They’re not registered Democrat or Republican, only 25 percent Republican and 23 percent Democrats. These are people that want issues solved. So, worrying about whose agenda and what race you are, other than what the issues are, how did they lose Democrats like me,

Margaret, a lifelong Democrat from West Virginia?

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: I – I was raised in a family and also an understanding that that’s not my enemy on the other side.

Democrats, we’re basically held accountable and responsible. We are – we are basically fiscally responsible and socially compassionate. And I don’t believe the government should be your – your provider. Government should be your partner.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, if you go through this open – open process…

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Right. Right. Right. Right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: … before the convention, and Kamala Harris, the vice president, emerges as the nominee, would you be able to support her?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Well, it depends on what the policies are. I want to see the platform change.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Would you be con – would you be interested…

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: I would consider. Sure, I would consider.

MARGARET BRENNAN: … in a vice presidential spot on that ticket, yourself?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: It’s not me. No, forget about me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re not going to run?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: No.

This is a new generation, Margaret. We’ve got a lot of deep people on the bench to conserve.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: And they have proven their mettle by being – being in an executive position. Give them a chance to rise. Give the president, Biden, a chance to do what he really, really can do.

See, I believe that the president should only have one six-year term. I don’t believe they should ever be in a reelection. And why that, you need a president from day one until the day they finish.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, last night in Michigan, this is what Donald Trump had to say about the disarray among Democrats.

(Begin VT)

DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. Presidential Candidate): They have a couple of problems. Number one, they have no idea who their candidate is.

(LAUGHTER)

FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: And neither do we.

It’s sort of interesting. This guy goes, and he gets the votes, and now they want to take it away. That’s democracy. They talk about democracy.

(LAUGHTER)

FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Let’s take it away from him.

(LAUGHTER)

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you fear that, by speaking publicly, not dealing with this earlier, that Democrats are not just hurting their own candidate, but hurting faith in the process?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Well, first of all…

MARGARET BRENNAN: There was a primary.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: … let me just say this, first of all, that we saw that the convention for the Dem – for the Republicans. And they did a wonderful job, four days, perfectly scripted, done a great job, unity.

And then President Trump spoke, in the last hour of his speech, never changed.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: So I still have the concerns about orderly transfer of power.

I know that January 6 was real. I have all these concerns about his basically continuing to attack the judicial system that we have, and the – the rule of – rule of law. I have all those same concerns I have had, and also sending signals he might not be there to help the free-loving countries that are our allies and our NATO allies and people that count on us to have that leadership of freedom and be there for them.

Those are my concerns with what I heard, and nothing has changed.

MARGARET BRENNAN: J.D. Vance is from a similar part of the country that you are from, and he has made a virtue of that, said he’s going to go out and campaign in Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania, talk about his Appalachian roots.

And he calls himself the most pro-union Republican in Congress. He’s railing against corporations. Do you find this pitch to be authentic? And will it work?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: I – J.D., I have always said this. You – whoever you send me from your state, I’m going to work every way I can to make sure they’re successful and we’re all successful.

I haven’t had that much experience with J.D. because he hasn’t been here that long. Seemed like a very nice person. We have pleasantries when we’re together and everything. I came – not only my roots, my entire – entire orchard is all about West Virginia. That’s who I am.

So, when I see that – I have been asked one time about my Democrat colleagues. They asked me, said: “Joe, what happened to the West Virginia Democrats?”

I said: “Nothing. They wonder what happened to the Washington Democrats.”

We’ve done everything you’ve asked us in West Virginia. We mined the coal, made the steel, built the guns and ships. We’ve had more people that have given their blood and lives supporting our country, patriotic. And now we’re not good enough, we’re not smart enough, and we’re not green enough. What happened?

We’re the people that basically helped build this country. Don’t leave anybody behind.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And that’s…

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: So, with that, that’s why I am not, because I believe that the far left of the Democratic Party has captured, truly, the party that I knew, and they’ve captured it and taken away.

I want to see that party come back. They should be trying to get the 51 percent of the independents like myself that have left.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you think Beshear and Shapiro are the top two choices that would be able to amplify that message?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: I think I have seen those two people operate in very difficult situations and do it successfully, and not villainizing and keeping their – their states whole. That, to me, is accomplishment. That’s what we’re looking for.

And that’s what America – they want the sensible, moderate middle. They want basically who we are. We don’t operate our life that way. How – Why is there a 51 percent of the people in America that says, I’m not affiliated with either party? Something’s wrong.

And you better play to that, because you’re not going to win with just 23 or 25 percent.

MARGARET BRENNAN: If – if this change doesn’t happen – and all the reporting today is that President Biden is dug in here – will you be able to support him?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Again, I have said I’m not endorsing or supporting anyone right now until…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Will you even vote?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Oh, I always vote. I will always vote. And I will make that decision when I walk into the booth.

But I would like to see a movement towards the sensible middle. And I have been saying that for a long time. I’m waiting until my friend Joe Biden, who I have known forever – you could always make a deal. You could always sit down. He’d bring people together. He’d always accommodate you some way.

I know that. And I have worked with that for many years. That’s what I’m looking for.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But now you – you can’t get through to him or you can’t speak to him?

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Well, I’m saying, when you have Bernie Sanders on one side and Joe Manchin on the other side, that’s a big chasm.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: That’s large. You have got to bring that together.

We respect each other. We should be able to come together. But it can’t be all one way or the other.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Manchin, thank you.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Always good to be with you, Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you for sharing with us.

Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Minnesota Congressman Dean Phillips. He was one of the few Democrats to run against President Biden in the primary.

Good to have you here.

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS (D-Minnesota): Great to be with you.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, when you suspended your race in March, you endorsed President Biden.

Do you stand by that? And what are you telling your delegates to do at this point?

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: I do stand by it.

I mean, obviously, Margaret, I ran because I saw a delusion. I saw a country that was in a very different place than our Democratic Party. Over 50 percent of Democrats, at that time, wanted a different candidate. And I was on a mission to expose the truth, provide an alternative, and do what I really saw in the numbers and through intuition was necessary.

It didn’t work out, of course, but I was trying to create the conversation…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: … that I knew was a matter of when, not if. And now we’re having it.

The president did call me in March, a very gracious conversation, and I did endorse him, and I still endorse him. But it is time to step aside and turn this over to a new generation. My endorsement stays until he makes that decision.

I’m encouraging that, the country’s encouraging it, and he has a chance to be an American hero.

MARGARET BRENNAN: He says he has made a decision. It just seems to be not the decision many lawmakers would like, or at least 40-odd…

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: It’s the wrong decision.

Lookit, leaving – leaving a career in public service is not easy. When I ran for president, I knew I would be giving up my career in Congress, a career that I absolutely love. But there’s something more important. Joe Biden has had an extraordinary career.

Doesn’t come – I can’t come close to what he has done. But it is hard to leave this. And I recognize that. But he has to. He’s got to put this country first. This – by the way, I want to send a message of optimism to Democrats right now.

This could be the most extraordinary opportunity that we’ve had in generations to reset, reenergize, recommit, and actually not just change the narrative, which would really make Donald Trump upset, but to succeed. And I know the president recognizes that. I hope he concludes that quite soon.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we have, what, 40-odd lawmakers who have now spoken out. There’s over 200 House Democrats. So where’s the majority at this point? Because very – a relatively small number are actually going on record, as you are right now.

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: Mm-hmm.

Well, it started with one, me. Now we’re at about 40. But the truth is, we have – we have a culture of silence.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Does he have the confidence of Congress?

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: No, he does not.

And, in fact, I’m calling – I just wrote an op-ed that appears in “The Wall Street Journal” today that calls for a vote of confidence amongst my colleagues, a secret ballot, because so many are afraid that, if they speak the truth, they’re going to be punished, which is what happens in this business.

It’s repulsive. A secret ballot expeditiously when we’re back here this week to present privately to the president to show him where Congress stands, I think would be helpful, because he is either ignoring the truth, or those around him have failed to perform their national duty, which is to share the truth with him.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We have to take a break, but please stay with us. We want to continue that conversation on the other side of it.

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: Sure.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Keep up with all the latest developments in the 2024 campaign – and there are a lot of them – on our daily political show, America Decides. It airs Monday through Thursday at 5:00 p.m. on our streaming network, CBS News 24/7.

We will be back in a moment.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.

We return to our conversation now with Minnesota Democratic Congressman Dean Phillips.

Congressman, you were just saying that in your estimation the president no longer has the faith and trust of the majority of Congress. Before your election, it was Republicans who held Minnesota’s Third District for 60 years. You’re not running for re-election there.

With the scene you are painting, do you think that Congress goes to Republican control, that’s that seat, but also Congress in the Senate and the House?

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: I think so. And, in fact, I think that’s one reason we’re seeing this massive shift right now is, it’s in my colleague’s backyard. They’re seeing their numbers precipitously decline. Our front lines of the most important districts in the country. And to your point, I won a district that had not voted for a Democrat in 60 years. There are some of us that know how we can reinvite independents, never-Trump Republicans. Democrats have been using imposition, not invitation. And I think my colleagues are recognizing that, sadly, a man we love, Joe Biden, is going to drag down this whole ticket. It is not just about the White House. And if Democrats do not hold the Senate or take back the House, I think it’s real problematic for this country and for the future. And the answer is absolutely. And that is a pervasive sentiment and it’s real.

MARGARET BRENNAN: When you were considering your primary bid, you have shared – you made appeals to Michigan’s Governor Gretchen Whitmer, and also Illinois’ governor, J.B. Pritzker. You were trying to urge them to run. They chose not to. Then you jumped in.

Would you consider them or advocate for them at the top of the ticket now?

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: Darn right. What I want to see, Margaret, is the president pass the torch, a term that everybody’s using now, and then have a mini primary. This is exactly what I called for a year ago. It’s not too late. Is it perfect timing? No, not at all. We have three weeks. We could have four town halls in each geography in this country, invite the best and brightest Democrats, including those, Governor Bashear, I think Joe Manchin, of course, Vice President Harris, introduce themselves to the country, create energy, excitement and delegates. Have the delegates at these town halls. The people – the 3,000 or so people, 4,000, who will be making the decision in Chicago this August.

You know, this notion that that could be disastrous if we went to some kind of a brokered convention or we had a competition. The disaster is here now. The question is, do Democrats want to win. If so, the names you just mentioned, many others, let’s have a thoughtful, spirited competition, show great contrast with a Republican felon of the past and a dynamic Democrat of the future. It’s not too late.

MARGARET BRENNAN: What is the cost of coming out against Joe Biden? You’ve paid a cost.

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: Yes, my career is done in Congress. So be it. A small price to pay for the country. Colleagues who have come out have received some veiled – some implicit and explicit threats relative to their campaigns. This industry –

MARGARET BRENNAN: From who?

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: I’m not going to get into the whos, but this political, industrial complex, this duopoly is a big part of our national problem. We need competition. Both parties stifle it. Both parties suppress it. I’m not going to – it’s not a false equivalency. I’m not talking about values and principles. But that is the truth. We need competition. We should be promoting next generations, not diminishing them. I understand why so many need to be silent because their careers will come to a close. We’ve got to start rewarding courage and punishing cowardice.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Congressman Phillips, thank you for sharing –

REPRESENTATIVE DEAN PHILLIPS: Thank you, Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: – your point of view with us.

We’ll be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the co-chairman of the Biden-Harris re- election campaign, Cedric Richmond, and he joins us this morning from New Orleans.

Good morning to you.

CEDRIC RICHMOND (Biden-Harris 2024 Campaign Co-Chair): Good morning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Congressman, we heard, as you know before you, from two – two allies of Joe Biden who have now changed their position. And we now look at the tally of roughly 40 lawmakers who have called for Joe Biden to step aside. Clearly leadership is setting up a permission structure for lawmakers to come out and say these things.

Has Joe Biden lost control of the Democratic Party?

CEDRIC RICHMOND: No, he’s not. And he’s heard those concerns. And I want to be crystal clear, he’s made a decision. And that decision is to accept the nomination and run for re-election, win re-election. and I think there are those out there that need to hear it again, that he made a decision, he’s going to be the candidate and he’s going to be the next president and now it is time to focus on the threat that Donald Trump poses and what the extreme agenda is an owe the other side.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Is the president aware that the calls are only growing in number and not diminishing?

CEDRIC RICHMOND: The president’s aware of the calls, and the president has made clear that members should do what they think they need to do and he’s going to do what the American people need him to do, and that’s to beat Donald Trump, focus again on working families, protecting women’s reproductive right, building the economy from the bottom up and the middle out. All of those things are what’s on Joe Biden’s mind. And every moment that we continue to talk about a decision that has already been made means that’s a moment we’re not talking about Project 2025 or a president – a former president who’s trying to divide the country.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think that speaker – or that Leader Jeffries, former Speaker Pelosi, and – and Leader Schumer could stop these conversations if they wanted?

CEDRIC RICHMOND: No, I was a member of the House. Members of the House are going to say and do whatever they want to do. And they earned that right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s a pretty big thing to come out against their own president.

CEDRIC RICHMOND: And the president has a right to run for re-election. Fourteen million people voted for him. Eighty million people voted for him in the last election. And, look, you just had Dean Phillips on who ran against him. The president beat Dean Phillips in a – Dean Phillips’ own district. The voters in Congressman Dean’s district wanted the president to be the nominee. And he is the nominee. And he’s going to be the next president of the United States.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in our CBS polling, Donald Trump has a five-point advantage on Joe Biden at this point in the race. And in a hypothetical head-to-head, Trump has a three-point advantage over Vice President Kamala Harris.

If she is running on the same platform of achievements as Biden, if the president says she is just as qualified, are you confident that she could move to the top of the ticket and beat Donald Trump?

CEDRIC RICHMOND: What I’m confident in is that the Biden-Harris team ticket can beat Donald Trump, and that America needs them to beat Donald Trump.

And if you look at the voters that are coalescing around President Biden and Vice President Harris, it’s the people with the most on the line. We’re talking about working families. We’re talking about women whose reproductive rights were taken away. We’re talking about minority voters where the Supreme Court’s attacking diversity, equity and inclusion and all of those things. And those are the voters that are rallying around the president and want him to continue to fight, which he said he’s going to do.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So our CBS polling team asked voters if they think Joe Biden should step aside and give another candidate a chance to run. A sizable four in ten black voters and about the same number of Democrats rite large think Biden ought to step aside as nominee. What do you make of those numbers?

CEDRIC RICHMOND: Well, that’s the question you ask. But did you ask those voters, are they voting for Biden? Do – did you ask them if they want someone who’s going to stand up and fight for their rights, someone who’s going to stand up and protect their freedom, someone who’s going to unite the country, someone who is going to make sure that America is respected on the world stage?

And so, look, we never thought this would be an easy race. And anyone who thought this was going to be an easy race was delusional. So, we’re preparing a campaign that can win in November. So that’s thousands of – of paid canvassers. That’s hundreds of offices open to talk to voters. And we’re going to go out there, do the hard work to run this race. This is not a time for a sunshine patriot or summer soldier. This is hard work, and we’re going to do it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you were just talking about how members of your own party are continuing to come out against the party’s nominee. This is the dominant conversation right now. Not all the messages that – that you would like to have front and center issue-wise.

How much time do you have here before it really starts hurting Joe Biden that fellow Democrats are denigrating him? When do you – when do you think he can actually persuade his party?

CEDRIC RICHMOND: The president’s going to run his campaign. He’s not trying to persuade his party. He’s trying to persuade the voters that he will wake up every day fighting for them. And that the guy on the other side, who’s unhinged, and who only thinks about himself, is going to continue to divide this country and sell out working class and working families to the billionaire class.

And so while my former colleagues and elected officials will continue to ponder and continue to talk, we’re going to continue to talk about the issues in this race. And my advice to our elected members is to go out there and talk to your voters about what’s at stake in this election. We’ve heard your concerns. The president believes he is the best person to beat Donald Trump. I agree with him. And, by the way, he’s not – Donald Trump has run in three Republican primaries and beat dozens of candidates. Nobody beat him. He won the presidency and Joe Biden is the only person in the history of the United States to beat Donald Trump. And he’s in the best position to do it again.

And so much is at stake. We should really focus on what’s at stake, the character of the two people, the record accomplishments of the past administration, and we should go knock on doors and we should go tell it on a mountain that this race is important and Joe Biden is the person to beat Donald Trump.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I know you were with Joe Biden on Tuesday when he – he was speaking at the NAACP. Have you spoken to him since? How is he feeling mentally right now about this?

CEDRIC RICHMOND: The president’s feeling good. Look, Joe Biden is a guy who’s been knocked down many times in his life. And I mean serious knockdowns. But he never stays down. He wakes up because it’s not just about him. He knows how important it is for America. And he’s going to continue to fight. So, he’s in a fighting mode. And I’m with him. And I’m going to be with him until the wheels fall off. And I hear that everywhere I go, that people want the president to fight. He’s going to fight. We’re going to win. And we’re going to stay focused on the American people and we’re not going to worry about history because we’re trying to build a future for this country.

We still have to protect the planet, create jobs, help working families. And that’s what he’s talking about every day. He’s still campaigning while he’s down making calls. And so he’s being the fighter that he’s always been. And he’s the fighter that we need.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Cedric Richmond, from the Biden campaign, thank you.

We’ll be back in a moment.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: For a closer look now at Republican’s shifting identity under Donald Trump, and what it might mean for American democracy and the world, we’re – we are joined by Fiona Hill, a former top official on the National Security Council, and Robert Kagan is a senior fellow at the Brooks Institution and an editor at large for “The Washington Post,” the author of “Rebellion: How Anti-Liberalism is Tearing America Apart Again.”

Good to you have both here.

You’re a former intel analysts, Fiona, and, Bob, you’re a historian, Republican turned independent. So, I want – I want you to help us analyze America like it were a foreign country.

Bob, here’s what Donald Trump, the 45th president, Republican nominee, said last night at a rally in Michigan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But can you imagine President Xi, Putin, all of them, they’re all smart, tough, they love their country, or they want to do well with their country, whatever it is, all ideology. But we have to have somebody that can protect us. And Orban was right, we have to have somebody that can protect us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Orban, as he said, is Orban, the Hungarian prime minister, a problematic NATO ally who’s, according to Mitch McConnell, in bed with China, Russia and Iran. What is that description of adversaries indicate to you?

ROBERT KAGAN (Editor at Large, “The Washington Post”): Well, Trump, sort of – the people that we think of as our adversaries, Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, those are the people that Trump seems to feel most warmly toward. It’s our allies that he is toughest on.

And it always surprises me when people say that Donald Trump is tough because in his record, both as president, but also in the way he talks about the future, it’s clear that he intends to accommodate Vladimir Putin. He just recently made very disparaging comments about Taiwan, which send a clear signal to Xi Jinping about whether we might defend Taiwan or not. And so, his basic approach to the truly tough guys in the world is that he backs down as in retreat. And his choice of JD Vance as his vice president sends a very strong signal about how we’re going to treat allies and how we’re going to treat adversaries.

Vance voted not only against Ukraine aid, but against Taiwan aid, and also against Israel aid. And I think that is the real foreign policy that Donald Trump speaks for now.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And, Fiona, you served under Donald Trump, on his Russia policy. You saw how he reacts to Vladimir Putin and authoritarians.

Why should Americans take pause when they hear that? Why does it matter?

FIONA HILL (Former National Security Council Senior Director European and Russian Affairs): Well, there’s two aspects of this. One is the one that Bob has already mentioned, which is Trump has an affinity with strong men. It’s how they project themselves on the world stage. It’s how he wants to be seen himself. It’s got nothing to do with the politics of China or Russia or the history and, you know, the policies around those relationships. It’s more about how he sees himself reflected in those particular leaders and how they react to him.

And then the second part is, when it comes to allies, which Bob has already mentioned as well, Trump doesn’t believe in allies. I mean in part that’s the cutthroat nature of his own business, and his business world. He sees allies really as supplicants, as people who want something from him. And he always makes it very clear, he doesn’t want to give anybody anything unless it’s in his interest. It is a very transactional view.

And so why that should give Americans pause is, that’s completely antithetical to the way that we’ve approached foreign affairs, in fact domestic affairs, you know, for a very long period, you know, going back to the beginning of the Cold War. He’s doing a major rupture in the way that America has positioned itself, both domestically and externally in terms of its outward posture.

I mean as Bob often, you know, says as well, people will figure out how to deal with this, but it doesn’t make this any kind of an easier shift. This is a dramatic shift in the way that America thinks about the world.

ROBERT KAGAN: Especially, if I may say, from Ronald Reagan, who – who was famous for his really close relationships with our Democratic allies.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Peace through strength.

ROBERT KAGAN: But also with allies.

FIONA HILL: Right.

ROBERT KAGAN: He was very close to Margaret Thatcher. He was very close to German’s Kohl, very close to France’s Mitterrand, very close to Japan’s Nakasone. And that was the bedrock of his foreign policy.

And with those alliances, and the strength that they recreated, and the military buildup that he led, that was how we got a peaceful end to the Cold War. Whereas now with Trump and JD Vance, you basically have the opposite of that approach. We’re a negative toward our allies and supplicant toward our adversaries.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Fiona, you know, I was out in Milwaukee, and it was very striking to see some of the imagery at the – at the RNC. The man who introduced Donald Trump was the head of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. He walked on himself to, you know, it’s a man’s world. And the walk on, going down the hallway, was like he was going out to – to a fight. Hulk Hogan spoke. The crowd was being led in chants, “fight, fight, fight,” replicating what happened with the attempted assassination.

And that slogan we were showing there, on the wall, they’re not after me, they’re after you, I’m just standing in the way. What image does all of this project to the rest of the world?

FIONA HILL: Well, it projects to the rest of the world that the United States, frankly, right now, is no different from any other country where you’re getting a populist leader emerging. You know, we’ve seen, you know, this happening in France. We had a, you know, kind of – well, the French had a near miss with the national rally. A very long-standing populist also isolationist party that nearly came to the fore in the snap elections. You’ve seen kind of populist parties emerging in the European Union, parliament elections. They’re on the rise in Germany. You know, we’ve seen Brazil, you know, and Argentina. There’s a populist leader I mean of slightly different bent of course. Mexico. You know, you can look around the world and see this same phenomenon.

And it, you know, as you’ve said, look at it as a foreign country. We would be putting the United States in that kind of – not the pantheon of the greats at the moment, but the pantheon of the populous countries. We’d be saying, well, what’s the difference with Hungary, what’s the difference with Bolivia, what’s the difference with Brazil and, you know, the past with Bolsonaro. We would be very hard pressed to see what the difference is.

And that’s what the rest of the world is looking at. They’re looking at America being taken over by populist politics and also a minority of very vociferous, vocal minority that is pushing, you know, particular viewpoints on what’s, frankly, the majority of the rest of the citizens.

MARGARET BRENNAN: It was – it’s also striking to me how, in all those examples you just laid out, migration issues was such a trigger point for galvanizing populist opinion in those (INAUDIBLE).

FIONA HILL: But it plays out very differently in each country.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

FIONA HILL: I mean here there’s this whole idea which, of course, is what JD Vance and many others have talked about in the convention, that democracy is going to end because migrants are coming in and it’s going to change, you know, somehow the whole perception of the politics.

We actually have a great demand for migrant labor in the United States. Our growth is being dependent on that. All of the, you know, better (ph) economic data shows that. In other countries, where there has been less economic growth, is still, you know, a downturn as a result of the economic crisis, you know, from a decade ago or from Covid. There’s more of a concern for competition for scarce resources and scarce jobs. There’s not this idea of replacement of the population in the same way that there is here. Immigration – immigration is, of course, an international crisis. But there’s a very different way it’s manifesting itself in politics in different places.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Bob, you had an op-ed in November saying if Trump wins, he’ll be the most powerful president to ever hold that office. And you warn the country’s drifting towards dictatorship.

In response, JD Vance came out with a pretty sharp letter to the attorney general and the secretary of state about you, saying, “I suspect that they might characterize this article as an invitation of insurrection, conspiracy, attempt to bring about civil war.” And he even suggested your spouse’s security clearance should be reviewed.

What do you think that reveals about the man seeking to be vice president?

ROBERT KAGAN: Well, it’s a preview of coming attractions. Obviously, they don’t like people writing critical articles about them. But their answer to people writing critical articles about them is that they should be investigated by the Justice Department. And I think we need –

MARGARET BRENNAN: But that sounds like weaponizing the justice system.

ROBERT KAGAN: Well, it certainly sounds like weaponizing the Justice Department. But – but more than that, it sounds like the end of free speech in our country. And I think it’s really important to focus on something that – that JD Vance said in his acceptance speech. He said, America is not a creedal country. I think a lot of people didn’t really know what he was talking about.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Know what that meant.

ROBERT KAGAN: But what he is talking about, the creed of the United States is the Declaration of Independence and the principles therein that everyone is equal, that everyone enjoys individual rights, that were granted not by God but by – or by government but by the nature of being human. And that is what JD Vance is saying we should not be.

And the people that he’s influenced by, the intellectuals he’s influenced by, are explicit about saying the Declaration of Independence, which Abraham Lincoln said was the essence of America, should not be what America is about.

What should it be about? It should be about where you were born, what your ethic group is. And – and it’s a very nice way of saying, white Christian nationalism. And that is what JD Vance is talking about. And so the problem is not just migrants, it’s everybody who’s not a white Christian.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, he would say his spouse is the daughter of immigrants, which he celebrated during his speech.

ROBERT KAGAN: Right. But in – in – in that world, in a world where we’re talking about an ethnoreligious definition of America rather than a credal (ph) ideas definition of America, sure, she can be in Ameria, but she’s not a real American. And that’s something that Hulk Hogan, you know, because I – the philosopher Hulk Hogan said, only the people who support Trump are real Americans. And – and I think there’s a – there’s a long tradition – by the way, what Vance is offering is not new, it’s old. It’s the oldest game. It’s been in both parties. It is hostility to the fundamental principles that the founders established at the beginning of this country, which is about human equality.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And when you say not – not new, you’re talking about 1920s, 1930s, 1940s in this country.

ROBERT KAGAN: That’s right. And – and – and the 19th century as well.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

ROBERT KAGAN: Both under – both before the Civil War and after the Civil War when many, many white Americans did not want to see blacks or other minorities and immigrants have equal rights.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

Thank you for your analysis, both of you.

We’ll be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week.

For FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)